The Jedi Temple Garden wasn't all that big, but between the flowers, the trees and the galactic core up above, it was quite beautiful. Jedi often came here to relax or spend time with one another.

(( This thread is intended for casual Jedi Roleplay. Have fun! ))

Kial had already been up for over an hour, despite how early in the morning it was. She had been exercising, as she did every morning. Her well toned body was damp with sweat as she came to a slow stop. For a moment she stood there panting, before turning in place and walking to a nearby tree.

Retrieving the bag that lay at the roots, she pulled out a bottle of water. She drank about three quarters. She then bent over and poured the rest over her head. Shaking her head, she straightened herself out. Her hand disappeared into the bag again and reappeared with a small pack of crackers. After opening it, she looked around as she started eating one of the crackers.

As Kial started eating, Denari came into view. She was crossing the garden in slow, carefully controlled front walkovers, fluidly starting the next after finishing the previous.

She spotted Kial mid-sequence and greeted her with a calm "Good morning" after she had both feet on the ground again.

She then did a few more walkovers before stopping to inspect where she had ended up. Apparently she found this place suitable enough for training, as she took out her lightsaber handle and started going through her Shii-Cho katas.

"Good morning." Kial replied, after finishing her first cracker. She watched Denari as she finished her crackers.

Dropping her bag back at the tree, she approached Denari.

"Care for a sparring partner, Padawan Merelle?"

"Well, that would actually be lovely, Padawan Valian. Do you recon it is quiet enough here, or shall we move to the sparring ground?"

"To be honest, I don't really care." Kial stated matter-of-factly. "But I actually think the garden isn't the place for lightsaber practice in general."

She looked Denari dead in the eye as she said that. There was even a slightly reprimanding undertone in her voice.

"Perhaps we should talk a little before going to the sparring ground."

(( OOC: just to be clear about the image I tried to paint in the post before the previous one, Denari was going trough the katas with just the handle, without activating it ))

Denari was a little puzzled by Kial's response, 'she doens't care, but she actually does?' she thought to herself. Then the undertone sank in and she realized that she and Kial might not be ideally matched with their subtelty skills.

"Perhaps we should indeed talk a little before going to the sparring ground. " She smiled. "I find this clearing as good a place as any for katas when the younglings aren't here and it is otherwise not busy yet. Provided, of course, it is not activated."

"What are your considerations for picking places for exercise?"

(( I got that, but Kial is a bit of a stickler. ))

"Depends on the exercise." Kial responded. "For physical exercise anywhere outside will do as long as there is room. Anything related to combat, including lightsabers, the sparring grounds is specifically for that. As for mental exercise..."

She paused a moment to think.

"Here in the garden or the meditation room in the temple I suppose, though you might want to ask a knight or one of the masters if you want to know what constitutes a good spot."

"Do you not like to be around the younglings or just not being watched by them?"

(( I hoped so, just checking! ))

"I see." Denari responded. "I suppose I view going through the kata motions without an activated lightsaber more related to physical exercise, like dancing, than combat. That also conveniently means I don't need to wait for people to finish sparring if I just want to practice the motions and vise versa." This girl sure liked to elaborate...

"I don't mind being around the younglings at all! I just don't want to get in the way of their play, or anyone else's business for that matter. And, quite frankly it is often too tempting for me to get involved with the younglings. Unless I'm meditating. When I'm meditating I can put it on hold best. Don't you do mental exercises as regularly as physical and combat related ones?"

Kial didn't seem to react to Denari's waterfall of words.

"I exercise them all the same amount, because I exercise them simultaneously."

Her matter-of-fact tone made it sound like it was the most obvious thing in the universe.

"If the younglings have time to play they should devote more time to their training. And you should discipline yourself if you are tempted to join them."

"Through play, they generate experiences that form the framework with which they understand the world, themselves an others." Denari countered. "It allows them to explore their talents and interests naturally, making their time studying more efficient. That's why they get time to play." She added matter of factly.

She had more to say about what Kial had just said, but she decided to let the other points be for the time being.

"Hardly, discipline and order form the norms and behaviours that allow them to function as effective parts of society. Without order and discipline, they will become selfish, arrogant and disrespectful."

"If they are to become proper adults that can contribute to society in a meaningful way, they need to work hard and strive to become the best people they can be. That goes double for jedi. If they cannot perform at their very best at all times, then what reason could they possibly have to be seen as worthy of being jedi?"

"Obviously children need order and structure. I'm glad we can agree on that. But I do not understand why you seem to equate play time between scheduled trainig, to not perforimg at their best.

"During play time they test and surpass the limits of their motor skils, while practicing teamwork and strategy. They also engage in meanigfull conversations about purpose and their understandings of the Force.

"Therefore I really do not see why it would be inferior to other forms of training with respect to working hard and striving to be the best persons they can be. If anything, it is complementary."

"In an ideal world you would probably be right, however we live in the real world. And the real world is very different. Freedom is extremely dangerous, it leads to chaos, anarchy and the Dark side of the Force."

Kial looked Denari dead in the eye as she spoke.

"By giving them time to play they get the freedom to allow their basic nature to surface. That will only lead to trouble later in their lives. It will make them more susceptible to corruption by the Dark side."

"The jedi are supposed to bring peace and justice to the galaxy. We voluntarily give up our freedom to do that, because freedom prevents us from doing that. How are we expected to help the galaxy to do that if we cant even do it properly ourselves?"

Denari could barely believe what she was hearing. The mindset of this girl was obviously dangerous, and a step towards the Dark side. At least, if she had come to understand the Universal Force philosophy correctly. However, the Masters must surely have taken this into account when they decided to promote her to Padawan.

"What you describe is oppression. Not genuine peace. Oppresion generates fear, frustration and eventually rage, therefore promoting the Dark Side. Perhaps the basic nature of the Chiss is so evil, similar to how humans are greedy, that oppression is the only thing that keeps them from destroying themselves.

"However most other species I know are naturally caring, compassionate and emphatic, thereby being able to live in balance and harmony with themselves and others, while being true to themselves. That Masters foster these capacities in Younglings, instead of surpressing all that they are and all our freedom.

"Perhaps you should talk to the Masters about your view on freedom sometime soon." Denari insistently finished.

"Perhaps you should do so as well." Kial bit back. She then closed her eyes and exhaled slowly, relaxing her body.

"My apologies, that was uncalled for." She said calmly. "There are many views in the galaxy, many ideals people strive too. Non of them are wrong even though some consider others as such."

"You may believe giving people less freedom equals oppression, but what of a criminal being locked in prison? Their freedom is taken from them because what they did was against the law. Is this oppression? The mere existence of government and laws is an act of imposing order for peace and justice on the chaos of freedom."

"Besides, before you make a judgment about an entire species or their way of living shouldn't you know more then just the tiny bit you concluded from a small part of a conversation with me? We both lack the experience to make proper judgement about these things. You may want to think about that before you call an entire race evil. A Jedi shouldn't insult anyone, should they?"

"I did not say the Chiss are definitely evil. As you rightfully point out, I do not yet know enough about the species to make such a claim. It was an untested hypothesis, formed from the conversation we have been having. And let me assure you, I find it a highly unlikely one.

"I do, however, see how my choice of words could cause the hypothesis to be interpreted as an insulting judgement. My apologies for that, I will be more careful phrasing my arguments in the future.

"Allow me to refute your hypothesis that I may believe less freedom equals oppression. I do not believe that is always the case. Laws and governments can provide the boundaries and safeguards a society sometimes needs to safeguard peace and freedom.

"Oppression is taking nearly all, or all freedom, down to not even allowing children time to play. I believe that the governing body is then excessively using its power to suppress, destroy or control anything that could possibly oppose it.

"The Universal Force philosophy teaches that people corrupted by the Dark Side typically do that, too.

"In the light of the parallels I just drew, can you understand that I find it alarming when you seem to insist that the Younglings should not be allowed any freedom, mainly for reasons of fear?"

Kial sighed heavily, shaking her head. This was hardly the first time she had this argument since she had joined the jedi order. It was hardly unexpected, she did grow up in a military dictatorship. And she definitely had less freedom then people from many other worlds growing up.

"And when exactly did I say the Younglings shouldn't have ANY freedom? And what exactly do I fear according to you?"

"Because I can't remember saying that. I said they should have LESS freedom. And the only thing I fear is not being able to make the galaxy a better place, not being able to make a difference."

"We clearly have different values. I accept your values are different. I'm not judging them or trying to change them. Because I know the paths we took to get where we are now are different. You, on the other hand, have not even considered mine. What you have done is cherry-picked examples of how my values are dangerous or wrong. You have made the choice that my values are wrong and have refused to look at their merits."

"The Unifying Force teaches one should look to all the future possibilities and consequences. Have you considered the possibility I or my people have considered these and have made a conscious choice to impose order, because the foreseen consequences were more desirable?"

Denari's attitude changed as she listened. Where before she had seemed enthusiastic and engaged, the radiant pigments on her face now turned dull and she seemed bored, a bit disappointed even. She still maintained eye contact with Kial, but her voice was now a lot flatter than it had been before.

"You actually never specified the amount of freedom the Younlings should have with the words 'any' or 'less'. Denari pointed out with a sigh. "What you have said is that we 'voluntarily give up our freedom' -OUR freedom, not SOME of our freedom- to bring peace and justice to the galaxy, because 'freedom prevents us from doing that' and that by giving Younglings time to play they 'get the freedom to allow their basic nature to surface' and that that 'will make them more susceptible to corruption by the Dark side.'" Denari cited.

"You also stated in general that 'freedom is extremely dangerous' as it 'leads to chaos, anarchy and the Dark side of the Force'. If you believe that all to be true, then the inevitable outcome of any freedom is the corruption by the Dark Side. Even without that extrapolation, it is reasonable to conclude from your choice of words that, until just now, you meant ANY freedom, and not LESS freedom and that your fear is that they will be corrupted by the Dark side of the Force. However, since you explicitly stated what you mean just now, I will adjust my interpretation."

"With respect to accepting our values are different and cherry-picking examples, you are just as guilty as I am. I do accept that your values are different and I think I understand you, and I know I have not yet expressed my understanding of the merits and acceptance explicitly yet. I intended to address that after your response of my latest question. That question was intended to give you the opportunity to explicitly express if you understood my view or not.

"But you have not expressed it. You have tried to rebut and bypass any views I have explained on the assumption it would only be right in the ideal world, and that the real world is very different. Therefore my views would be wrong and dangerous. Furthermore and you have not used any words to confirm you acknowledge where we agree on principles, such as on law and order. Your words, tone and manner of presenting arguments have given me no reason to assume you had not made the choice that my values are wrong and possibly short sighted."

"As for your question. I assume your and your people have considered the all the future possibilities and consequences you could foresee, and that you chose the path that seemed to have the more desirable consequences for you or your people. I do not hold you for fools. I am however curious if it allows to be adapted to new insights and experiences or if you see this as absolute, time invariable, truth." She seemed a tad more interested again now.

"There is one final thought I would like share. I think you have considered it yourself, and I don't care for your view or conclusions on it, I just want to know for sure you have given it thought: Some Padawan and Knights might at some point be tempted to the Dark Side. Any of their experiences might influence this, from their time as children to experiences during missions. Master Mutnesh and the other Masters are wise, involved and capable to guide them through their troubles and keep them on the path we believe is right. I believe that, in combination with this intervention, the Masters maintain a good balance between the benefits of how they raise the Younglings and the risks you pointed out, so that they can become the best Jedi they can be."

(( OOC: I'd like to wrap up the argument soon, since I won't have enough time to continue like this starting next week. I was planning to have Denari excuse herself in the next post or the one after. ))

(( OOC: to explain Denari's changed attitude: she is a fan of proper debating etiquette, even though she realizes she still has a lot to learn. She liked the difficult debate but now she thinks Kial does not intend to listen or be honest about that they agree on things. So she is a tad disappointed, lost interest and does not care about the debate anymore. ))

The change in Denari's attitude did not go unnoticed by Kial.

"I see." was all she answered.

"Thank you for the discussion." she said as she bowed.

She started to turn towards the ziggurat, but stopped halfway.

"From what I know of the Universal Force philosophy, it divides the Force down the middle into the Dark side and the Light side. That always seemed a bit... absolute, to me. Think about that before making a definitive choice, if you haven't yet."

After that she left for the ziggurat, leaving Denari behind.

(( Not if I leave first. :P ))

"Likewise." Denari replied as she returned Kial's bow.

When Kial turned she saw Denari had already resumed her acrobatics training. She was balancing up-side down on one hand, perfectly balanced and still, with her back turned towards Kial.

"That too is an observation I agree on with you" Denari responded as she changed the position of her free arm, preserving her balance with a minute adjustment in her tail. She maintained this position as Kial left for the ziggurat.

After a while, she pushed off and landed on her feet in one smooth motion. She then left for the kitchens in the north wing to report for breakfast duty, leaving the garden behind.

(( That also works ;p ))

(( Thank you for the roleplay. I hope you enjoyed it too. ))

(( Time skip ))

A few hours later, about halfway through the afternoon, Kial once again appeared in the gardens. This time she was wearing her jedi robes, instead of her form fitting training clothes. Not that it made much difference. Both covered her entire body, exposing no skin what so ever. In fact, she made it a point never to let anyone see her skin below the top half of her neck. Even her hands were always covered in gloves. The jedi masters had once expressed concern about this. After which nothing was ever heard about the matter ever again.

Kial found a quiet place in the garden. She stood in the middle of the spot and rolled her head and shoulders. She then stood on her toes and placed her hands on top of each other with the palms facing upward. She then lifted her left foot off the ground, pointing her knee sideways. She took a deep breath, closed her eyes and slowly exhaled. Like that she started to meditate.

Venturing into the gardens fresh from her early morning training, we find a red skinned twi'lek woman walking the greenery and shrubs. Contrary to most, she wore some sort of midriff baring top in dark leather and utilitarian form fitting pants of some odd material with matching boots. she had her saber hilt securely set on her left hip, a knife holster with a simple white bone adornment was strapped to the opposite thigh.

Said woman carried herself with grace as a dancer should and presented a face of calm observation. Currently, she seemed to be a bit lost, or perhaps just exploring to see what sort of place this was.

That morning Kial had decided to work in the gardens. She sat on a peace of cloth, a thermos standing next to her from which she occasionally took a sip. On her lap lay a datapad, a stylus in her right hand continuously moving on its screen, writing things down. The datapad had a small holoprojector and was projecting several texts that Kial occasionally looked at.

As Scarlet came across Kial, the Chiss woman asked:

"Can I help you, Padawan Vohuk?"

Kial did this without looking up from her work.

Starting at the sudden question, it would take a moment before Scarlet acknowledged the woman before her.

"Huh? Oh, uh... " her brow furrowed trying to recall the name of the padawon who spoke, her leeku twitch as she failed miserably. "Sorry, I didn't mean to disturb you. I'm still trying to get my bearings in the temple."

Shifting her weight a bit, her stance becoming a bit more guarded, she would ask, "Have we met before? I can't seem to recall your name if we have."

It was only now that Kial looked up from her work. She turned off the holoprojector and clipped the stylus to the side of the datapad.

"Not formally." Kial said, completely calm. "I believe we've passed each other a few times. The Temple isn't that big."

Both her demeanour and her tone gave off a mature feeling, which wasn't that surprising considering she was both physically and mentally an adult.

"My name is Kial Valian." Kial gave a small bow with her head as she introduced herself.

"And you didn't disturb me. You just seemed a little lost."

There was a short pause.

"Any specific reason you're weary of me?"

Scarlet took a few moments to consider that point before speaking.

"Ah, I see." nodding.

when introduced properly, Scarlet responded to the inclined head with a closed fist inside of an open palm, "A pleasure then, to formally meet you, Kial." Inclining her head, "I am Tas'thiana Vohuk. Scarlet, to make it easier for you."

An amused, though also sheepish expression crossed her features when asked of the wariness. "Old habit, I'm afraid. This was ntot he first, temple I suppose, you could say I was in. Someone knowing your name there when you did not know theirs, was not a good sign." the guarded posture settled into something a bit more neutral.

Still siting on the ground, Kial looked up at Scarlet.

"There aren't enough jedi here for a newcomer not to stick out like a sore thumb."

There was no malice in Kials statement. It was merely an observation.

"But there's no need to be weary of such things here. It was the one of the first things I learnt here when I first arrived. So you can relax."

Kial gestured Scarlet was free to take a seat if she wanted at the last sentence.

Scarlet would nod slowly. "Yeah, i guess it would be kind of silly not to notice new people, eh?"

with a curious head tilt, she would ask, "If it isn't classified or something, what were ya working on?"

Accepting the offer, she took the indicated seat.

"An evaluation report on the materials the Order uses and a projection on what we're going to need in the future."

Kial stated matter-of-factly.

"Was there a lot of animosity at the temple you were at before?"

"Ah" curiously, "but, why are you handling those sorts of logistics? Isn't that the quartermaster job?"

Carefully considers her words before answering, "Animosity, is certainly one word for it."

Leans back in the seat. "There was an unspoken option to challenge any other deciple, over a variety of topics and methodologies. So knowing your opponent while they knew nothing of you..." she let the sentence tail off, allowing Kial to fill in the result.

"Would put you at an advantage." Kial finished Scarlets sentence. "Sounds highly competitive to me."

Kial looked at Scarlet thoughtfully.

"If you have such a competitive attitude, I strongly advise you to try and overcome it quickly. While it can push you to improve yourself, it can also lead to the dark side of the Force. Besides, cooperation will allow you to reach much further and do so much more then you could ever do alone."

"But if you haven't figured that out yet, I'm sure you will soon enough."

She paused a moment to let her words sink in.

"The report isn't for the Jedi Order. It is to help me learn more about being a commanding officer. The Military Caste taught me to always strive to improve myself, so I can contribute more."

Nodding "I agree with you, healthy rivalry between students cab help both to grow, pushing them to their very best."

A slight smile crossed her lips, a fond memory perhaps. "It was something my first instructor always made sure to remind us, " tapping her forehead with a fingertip "sometimes literally." A chuckle accompanied this.

"I'm still getting used to this force stuff." Furrowed her brow a bit, "don't get me wrong, I understand the philosophy of it well enough, but some of it? I think I'd have better luck tickling a rankor."

Shaking her head a minute she would lean toward a bit, curiously. "Already trying for military leadership?" Gives Kial a once over "Would they even take you seriously? I mean, young officers tend to get overlooked a bit for the more seasoned ones, don't they?"

"Trying?" Kial asked. "I've been an officer in the UPT Navy for years. In fact, the only person on Unity that outranks me is Colonel Streth, who acts as the UPT senator."

"Not to mention the eight years of military education and training I received before I started my jedi training. Some worlds may promote officers on politics, but the UPT only promotes those who've earned it. And you don't become a Commander at my age without reason. Everyone in the Military Caste knows this. Anyone that graduates one of the officer schools on Thanda and is granted an officers rank has proven they are worthy of that rank."

There was an uncharacteristicly firm tone in Kials voice.

"Question my abilities all you like, but do NOT question the professionalism of the Thandan Military Caste."

Holds her hands up in moch surrender.

"Whoa, hold on now. I was only trying to ask a question."

Leans back in her seat. "Also, I only just met you, officially. How was I supposed to know you were already military or in the command positions?" Her tone mildly irritated at the sudden sharp note in the conversation.

Taking a moment for a calming breath or three. "So, is that normal for Thandanese citizens or, it something you just felt like pursuing yourself?" Curious, despite the pervious tension.

Kial was quiet for a moment, then took a deep breath and slowly exhaled.

"My apologies. I thought you were insinuating either I was incompetent or my people insubordinate."

Her tone had returned to normal.

"My world, the Unified People of Thanda, receives a lot of criticism from outsiders. I've had more then my share of insults thrown at me on my way from the Jedi Temple and the UPT Embassy. I may have become overly sensitive."

"My people use a caste system to create social order. I was born in the Military Caste, so I'm a soldier by birth. As were my parents. As my children will be, if I ever have any. The same goes for every one in the Military Caste. The Noble Caste will be nobles. The Religious Caste will be priests. The Merchant Caste will be merchants and the Labour Caste will be workers. It has been that way since long before the Armageddon. All I chose was the Navy and starship operations."

Shakes her head.

"No insult was intended, just, you seemed so young to sit so high in command. " A couple twitches of her leeku come with her posture settling back to a neutral, relaxed state. "If anything, it was a question about how you were treated? I've seen younger people overlooked for older ones before, even though the older gave the same instruction."

When the caste system was explained, she seemed curious at the concept. A set role in society, no matter your own interests, just because of you being born to a certain group.

She even took a few moments to mull it over before speaking again. "So you were really only allowed to be a soldier?"

And in a moment of confusion blending to curiosity at the new concept before her. "How did you fit becoming a Jedi into that? We are not exactly supposed to be soldiers. Wouldn't that mean your breaking tradition to do so?"

"No need for flattery." Kial could only interpret Scarlet calling her young looking as flattery. Seeing as she had the physique of a very fit human woman in her late 20s or early 30s, even if Kial was only 17. Chiss matured much faster then humans, having the physical maturity of 20 year old human at age 10 and being full adults by 14.

"Good soldiers follow orders. Besides younger officers are often paired with older subordinates in the Military Caste. We're encouraged to take advice from more experienced people even if they are lower in rank. Don't take my rank as a standard though, most people my age are lower in rank."

Kial shrugged.

"I've never known anything other than the military and I wouldn't know what else to do if I had. The Jedi are very similar to soldiers from my point of view. Both protect and serve. I joined because I need to save as many people as I can. I believe I can save more people as a Jedi then from the bridge of a starship."

Tilts her head curiously a moment, seemed to be mulling over her words and weighing her reply.

When she finally spoke, she said with a hint of amusement. "Ah, a 'go big or go home' type of person. " A smile formed on her lips. Expanding that thought with "If your going to do it, aim for being the very best. " nods. "I can respect that sort of drive."

"The willingness to throw yourself into the fire, the pressure, and the challenge, just to hone and refine yourself." A wistful smile. "Hopefully, I can match that example in something besides the combat arts someday." Grimaced as she rises, a chime sounding from her watch(or equivalent tech).

"Until then, I look forward to our next conversation, padawan Kial. I've got to return to the archives for more studying."

With a slight bow accustomed to those in the martial arts, she would trudge on back to the temple proper to resume her lessons.